American Candid

Jeffrey Side contends that I "hijacked" threads and spammed with fiction-related links at the OtherStream and The Argotist Online groups at Facebook, yet he deleted one thread in which he contends my transgressions occurred.  In another thread at OtherStream group, I deleted, though Jeffrey Side maintained he deleted, my comments about PROSETICS that intruded upon consideration of Dana Gioia's forthcoming review of Jack Foley's work.  Tim VanDyke kindly sent me a partial transcript of Jeffrey Side's OtherStream thread titled against Ann Bogle.  I abruptly left the OtherStream group after reading a comment by Chris Watts, formerly of Bard College, who typed that he planned to misattribute statements in that thread and to publish them online.  I reread the partial thread a week later and decided it is in the genre LIVE THEATER.  Here it is, verbatim (I love it that Side's typo is "form"):

• The thread that Jeffrey Side started August 1, 2012 at the OtherStream group at Facebook:

[Thread header]: "I’ve had to remove Ann Bogle from the Argotist FB group, as she was relentless in her determination to carry on starting threads that were not poetry related, and also “hijacking” other threads by posting comments not related to the threads’ topic matter. I explained to her that the Argotist group was solely for discussion of poetry but she ignored me, and continued unrelentingly. I, therefore, had no choice but to remove her form the group."

o Anny Ballardini I like Ann Bogle, sorry she did that, but then I almost never follow this list, because of Time, that is why.
6 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey, poets are my people, and poetry my reading, and poetics my guide in considering prosetics. Poets consider developments in fiction less than I consider developments in poetry. My security breach in broaching fiction and creative nonfiction at The Argotist Online, where my poems have appeared, the offense of it to you, has indirectly helped me to understand poetry's segregation of genres, similar to the separation of prose narrative (fiction and cnfic) and poetry in American creative writing programs and within most literary journals. Genre is a passion for me, and I like to quote Lyn Hejinian, "prose is not a genre but a multitude of genres."
5 hours ago • Like • 2
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Anny Ballardini Well, we have prose poetry
5 hours ago via mobile • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle PP/FF, the title of Peter Conner's anthology of prose poetry and flash fiction, is another guide for me, both in considering musical applications to prosetics and the differences between pp/ff.
5 hours ago • Like
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Jeffrey Side Ann, your opinions on prose fiction are not offensive to me in the least. They are just inappropriate subject matter for a poetry discussion group. Why don’t you start an FB group for your ideas? I’m sure it will be welcomed.
5 hours ago • Like • 2
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Rich Haber hey jeff, here's an idea for you: fuck off, you pretentious fop. and ann, why bother? my ex once gave me a miraculously helpful piece of advice - never stay where you're not wanted.
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber censorship is bad enuff from mainstream asswipes, but among artists? it's totally shitbox
5 hours ago • Like • 2
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Ann Bogle Jeff cross-posted his statement (above) at The Argotist Online then removed me as a member of that group. May I request that you let The Argotist Online group know that you have not canceled my voice and related posts at OtherStream in case they care to respond directly.
5 hours ago • Like
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Jeff Swanson Jeff, you wear a powdered wig and have a heart beauty-mark on your face? I never imagined you like that.
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber lol - what's language all about, if you cant stretch denotations into connos, eh mate?
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side I’ve always wanted a mate who doesn’t use punctuation.
5 hours ago • Like • 2
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Jeffrey Side … apart from after the contraction “connos”, that is.
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Rich Haber, I appreciate your awareness and support, but reserve the imperative use of fuck for unnamed soldiers who kill, maim, and dislocate civilians.
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber whew, smells of authoritarianism in here. putz
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side Yes, Jeff, Ann is right. I am not a soldier, and so to say “fuck” to me is not right.
5 hours ago • Like
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Rich Haber hmm, good point, ann. but i'm from bklyn. fuck isnt reserved at all. i'm not reserved. wouldnt wanna be anything like it, neither, double negs not withstanding. or understanding, fer that matter.
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Chris Watts Glad I stayed the fuck out of that one... I love you all, love reading you all, so there.
5 hours ago via mobile • Like • 3
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Jeffrey Side I never use four letter words unless I’m ejaculating.
5 hours ago • Unlike • 2
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Rich Haber "...and I love ehhh vreee bahh deeee, since I fell in love with YOU!"
5 hours ago • Like • 2
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Jeffrey Side That’s the most sensible thing you’ve said up to now.
5 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Rich Haber, one guy at an A.A. mtg. in St. Cloud gained the sympathy of the group by clarifying that the U.S. had trained him to be a killer and he had ret'd from Iraq and hit a man at a bar for which he was charged and sentenced to attend A.A., itself a form of religion. I was in attendance with a friend and told her before the mtg. I did not wish to identify myself as an alcoholic, though it was a "closed" meeting, open only to self-described alcoholics, and she said, say that you have a desire not to drink alcohol, the only requirement of membership, so when it was my turn, I said, "My name is Ann. I have a desire not to drink alcohol." My presence that night was regarded a little suspiciously but I thanked them for letting me attend at the request of my friend.
5 hours ago • Like
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Ann Bogle So, there was my chance to say fuck you to a killer, and I didn't do it. I thanked him and the others for letting me sit in the room as an out-of-town visitor of my friend.
4 hours ago • Like
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Rich Haber i've done some serious work, trying to reconcile my ambiguity about our volunteer armed servicemen and women - kinda lengthy to jump into here. in short, my feelings and thoughts surround those who would sacrifice their own lives for their "countrymen"
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber conflicting with nationalism vs one big world family
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeff Swanson Hm, that's interesting. Instead of sacrificing yourself for your countrymen, you refuse to fight so that you may forge a relationship with your world country. I like that.
4 hours ago • Like
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Jeff Swanson Because god knows, these days it's not your "countrymen" or "countrywomen" you're fighting for, but the Oligarchy who sent you out to protect their interests.
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber never said that, jeff. truth is, i dont have the guts to shoot anyone. but the sad fact, that all these military families are so misguided and confused, is just sickening. their bravery and loyalty is ignored - as in song Universal Soldier.
4 hours ago • Like
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Rich Haber and the oligarchy cant send soldiers if the soldiers wont go.
4 hours ago • Like
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Jeff Swanson Of course, but why wouldn't they go? They want to be rich, right? If you don't play the game, you don't maybe might gonna be rich someday, right? So play the game, or we ain't gonna let you be rich, kid!
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber you must be young. we antiwar activists started antiwar groups INSIDE the military, during the viet nam "police action" - nothing that size is happening now, but there is an iraq vets antiwar group, joined at the hip, with the viet vets group and vets for peace group - very difficult, getting soldiers to turn on their officers and say - Sir, that order is illegal, Sir!
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber joining the army isnt about getting rich. never was. they were the lowest paid workers in the working class, worldwide. nowadays, different story, with the corporatists transforming us into a military society - man, we are so wayyyy off topic. so jeff, you are not the other jeff's alter-ego? another cyber-identity, using another IP address?
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeff Swanson Dude, you're not thinking laterally. We play by the rules in this country because we all want to stay in the game, and the game is getting rich. Nobody wants to disobey, because then they get put in the penalty box, i.e., jail, and despite free room and board and all the sex you can stand, jail's no fun.

And no, I am not Jeff Side. If I was an alter ego of his, do you really think I'd call myself Jeff? I'd call myself Rich Haber.
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side I can vouch that Jeff is not me. I would never use the word "dude" when addressing an older person than myself.
4 hours ago • Like • 2
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Rich Haber lol oh u kids. i'm no military expert but we used to chant "Just turn back if the orders are whack!" - the basis was that any soldier is morally and legally bound to refuse to obey an order that is "illegal" under the articles of war, as laid out in the geneva conventions
4 hours ago • Like • 2
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Jeff Swanson In California, we call everyone Dude. It's a term of great respect among our kind.
4 hours ago • Like • 2
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Ann Bogle ANN BOGLE, ANN BOGLE is my blog post that links to Kevin Thurston's blog, Fucking Lies (Polite Happiness) and a poem posted there written by Han Scrable called "Scrable on Bogle." My correspondent, B'go, in considering the poem Scrable wrote, offered lines Bob Dylan owned before he gave them to the world. B'go writes, "I was thinking that as far as extemporaneous prosody on cigarette shops that this was the gold standard."
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber omg AB at her best. oh ouch
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber well u got yer Major Dudes and ur minor chords and it's just too sadly bad when poetry sails and prosody fails, among cheers and jeers and what have we heres
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber rich, to day-job boss, "I'm soooo sorry I quit"
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Dylan's extemporaneous prosody on cigarette shops the gold standard. Jeffrey Side, this is what might be described as a "successful' thread with its passions and participants loving and fighting. Do you feel it might reach those academics you most hope to persuade of your arguments in poetics? As I asked in WHAT at F'naut without your answer, who are they you most hope to persuade? I claimed that in your recent jottings in comment threads on FB that it seemed you had "enemies" in mind with names, you used the word "enemy" to describe academic gatekeepers of post-avant (not your word, that's Adam Fieled's) academic poetry. If you cultivated similar enemies? Would that help your position academically? Protestant heritage not belief causes me to fault behavior not men.
4 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side The digressive development of this current thread (entertaining as some of it has been) is the reason I removed you from the Argotist group.
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber frumpified foppery, frugally fritting fruffery thru the tulips of triangarulation - tut-tut, i say, get thee to a nunnery. whatta waste of good oxygen.
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Luis Lemus Attica, Attica... #FistRaisedinSolidarity (smile) Aren't artists supposed to stand together, fraternal bickering aside? I have read this and other threads trying to discern the point of this brouhaha only to ultimately conclude this is a tempest in a teacup. Make art, not war. The forums for writer and artist are a pretty small sandbox; let's play together (smile). Peace.
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeff Swanson Ann Bogle's extemporaneous prosody on Ann Bogle is the Ann Bogle of this thread. Ann Bogle.
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side I agree, Luis. Rich obviously doesn’t like me because I removed Ann from the Argotist group for perfectly legitimate reasons. I can understand his loyalty to her as a friend (I assume he is a friend) but there’s no need for him to be abusive to me. Even Ann hasn’t resorted to that—at least not yet.
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey Side, you had represented (though I might have wanted an editor in you besides) my e-chapbooks, so, for that career-related investment I had made with you, I failed to defend Bobbi Lurie more fully (by disassociating from you? retracting my e-books?) when you described her as psychotic in an email. The links to my e-books are probably still working. Rachel Lisi designed the cover of one of them, and Daniel Harris gave ten illustrations. All I wanted to say, and you are avoiding the subject rather stupidly, is, and I said it in more than one place and way, your poetics collection of essay, responses, etc. and fight with Seth Abramson about it, did not name names in a way that might have been useful in considering or applying your arguments. Your cry that it went by not celebrated caused me to plunge in as a reader preparing to review your email correspondence, Other Voices, with Jake Berry. Jake, in turn, took a dip, a little swim, in my prosetics, and responded kindly. I am in your coral as a writer, and you are revoking my digressive strategies. It seems strange you represented my collections as e-books unless you were aligning yourself in another silent debate in poetry.
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle And btw prosody is a system of versification.
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber digression=development=devolution=dissolution=de-salvation=salivation=spit=jackshit
3 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeff Swanson Scatological versification.
3 hours ago • Like • 2
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Ann Bogle 59
3 hours ago • Like
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Rich Haber ok, jeff, calling my dear friend bobbi psychotic is beyond whatever shitball i rolled out for you. i'm not obliged to be polite because you deserve human respect. you don't. you're just a waste of time. this is my last posting to you, scumbag.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle I feel sorry that Carol cannot select "like" for Jeff Swanson's comment about volunteer army defending oligarchy. Carol Novack, love you Carol, is broke, something she'd always feared but that was not likely to occur in her lifetime, I told her, and it didn't. I miss Carol.
2 hours ago • Like • 3
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Jeffrey Side Ann, I was unaware that the links to your ebooks were not working. I will correct that. If I had intended to remove the actual ebooks I would not have left them as listed on the site. If that is what all your silliness is about, then you should have told me the links were inactive instead of causing trouble here. I assumed you were more mature than this.

Regarding my saying Bobbi Laurie was psychotic. I said her emails to me had become psychotic and confusing to me, much like your posts here have been. Here is the email exchange you and I had about it. The first email is my response to your asking if I would do an ebook of her poems, which I initially refused to do, but later agreed to.

Me:

I've had dealings with Bobbi Lurie in the past, and to be frank it wasn't all that pleasant. Her email exchanges with me became more and more psychotic and confusing, and her tone and language were belligerent towards me. Sorry for my negativity, and I appreciate your trying to help her out.

You:

Thanks for letting me know of the experience you've had with Bobbi, as sad as it makes me to hear it. I have had to make my way carefully with Bobbi myself, as I know her life circumstances have not been easy, and she becomes suddenly distrustful. The internet, especially, though she is a good writer there, sometimes even better than good, at times deluges her with confusion.

Me:

The only way I could consider doing an ebook for her is if you or Marc Vincenz act as intermediaries for me.

You:

Sound good. Let me know if there's anything we need to do first and when. Thanks so much, Jeff.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber in case anyone is interested, bobbi's son Noah just went blind and she is recuperating from an ear operation. i will forward anything anyone wants to send her.
2 hours ago • Like
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey Side, I did not type that the links were not working.
2 hours ago • Like
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Jeffrey Side You said I retracted your ebooks.
2 hours ago • Like
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Luis Lemus Jeff (not to take) Sides: ultimately my loyalties lie with AB and not C, as she is at the very least an acquaintance of long standing and someone whose work I respect utterly. You also have some respectable offerings, therefore urging respectful restraint and understanding on all sides. Abrazos.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey Side, define "psychotic" then. You are wildly evasive. Who knew you were wild? I wrote "distrustful" and you are not? I wrote "confusion" and you are not confused. Bobbi knows about this correspondence that Jeff quotes here, accurately (it is plain that Jeff and I do not have day jobs), painstakingly, and ... okay, Princess Di ...
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side Luis, I have nothing against Ann. She seems to think I retracted her ebooks that I published, which I have not—the links to them are just broken, which I will fix. This is the cause, it seems, for all the trouble she is causing. All she had to do was email me, let me know the links were broken and I would have fixed them.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Bob Spryszak you're all wrong... the word fuck is an aphrodisiac. Every other use is just silly.
2 hours ago • Like • 2
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Rich Haber cant read either - "...I failed to defend Bobbi Lurie more fully (by disassociating from you? retracting my e-books?) when you..."
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side I am always confused by your posts, Ann.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber this is how wars get started. i'm outta the kitchen, cant take the heat. bye.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey Side, you are misreading. Or you misread quickly once. I asked whether your refusal to issue e-book by Bobbi after you had engaged in a long (?) personal correspondence with her, ought to have required (of me) that I retract my e-books and dissociate from you. I have not stated that the links are not working or that you retracted the e-books. You have stated that, and you are misquoting me.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeff Swanson There is more personality on display here than in a hundred ordinary internet locations.
2 hours ago • Like • 2
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Rich Haber ps - luis, you are a true peacekeeper. glad to make your acquaintance.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side I thought you were complaining about the broken links. It seems you are not. What you do regarding Bobbi is up to you. I did agree to do an ebook for her, but refused to deal with her directly as I can’t get on with her and nor she me. I asked you to act as go-between, which you agreed to. But I’ve not heard anymore about the matter from you, until now.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber pps Bob Spryszak who is that guy in your ID pic?
2 hours ago • Like
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey Side, in the real publishing world, writers have agents. Your proposal to publish her e-book as long as there were a "sane" chaperone was rejected, by her, in full awareness of your opinion of her correspondence with you.
2 hours ago • Like
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Jeffrey Side Well, Ann, all I can say is that you are very underhand showing her my email behind my back. I hope you don’t do this with all your friends emails.
2 hours ago • Like
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Jeffrey Side By the way, I don’t think you are such a sane chaperone after all, if you behaviour here is taken into account.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Bob Spryszak Rich - it's Billy Sunday.
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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David Simmer II I'm having taco salad for lunch!
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey Side, I related it to her, yes, without forwarding your or my email about her to her. Here, I have fetched the Bob Dylan prosody cited above. Fetch is a game even cats enjoy, mine did:
2 hours ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle Bob Dylan wrote this: I want a dog that’s going to collect and clean my bath
return my cigarette and give tobacco to my animals
and give my birds a commission.

I want, I’m lookin’ for somebody to sell my dog
collect my clip, buy my animal and straighten out my bird.

I’m lookin for a place that can bathe my bird
buy my dog, collect my clip, sell me cigarettes and commission my bath.

I’m lookin for a place that’s gonna sell my dog, burn my bird and sell me for a cigarette
bird my buy collect my will and bathe my commission

I’m lookin for a place that’s gonna animal my soul,
knit my return, bathe my foot and collect my dog,
commission me, sell my animal to the bird to clip
and buy my bath and return me back to the cigarettes.
2 hours ago • Like • 3
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Jeffrey Side You are as mad as a hatter, Ann!
about an hour ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle I left it a little vague in my writing to the board of Mad Hat re: my position as creative nonfiction editor since 2008. I don't know whether I'll stay or be fired or fade or move with Douglas Querl to Houston. Can the Board (of four) fire someone they are not paying and who spent capital resources on them? I withdrew my bid to work as p-t paid managing editor of MHR. I realized, long story, that to work underpaid for MHR would be worse than not to be paid at all.
about an hour ago • Like • 1
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Jeffrey Side Seriously, Ann, why don’t you start your own FB group? Using other peoples' groups and threads for your own aims is not fair.
about an hour ago • Like • 1
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Ann Bogle OtherStream is Bob Grumman's wor(l)d, and he hasn't said no prosetics yet.
about an hour ago • Like
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Tim VanDyke Actually, it isn't his wor(l)d, not solely at least. But it is so obvious you are trying to drive an agenda home through everybody here. It is also obvious there are plenty of other venues for your agenda. So the fact that you aren't using those venues raises some questions.
about an hour ago • Like
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Bob Grumman FacebookI love the word, Ann, but I don’t know exactly what it means yet. Anyway, I’m not the one in charge here, so I wouldn’t be able to ban it even if I thought it should be banned.
49 minutes ago via • Like
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Ann Bogle Tim VanDyke, you are advocating self-censorship, I think, yet not of Jeffey Side.
44 minutes ago • Like
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Rich Haber S.O.P., when confronted with un-labeled genre-defying misun-named disabuse of scrawly and unruly electronic blips fathomed within boxes of windowlytic eye-bytes, the crowd will invariably ostracize and otherwise pariah-cize and prioricize for demoltion, said practitioner of such witchcraftery. giving up waiting for ?? among even the best of american artists, where x = c, so no one has to guess at the cost of freedom
43 minutes ago • Like
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Rich Haber wow, billy sunday. enigmatic for sure. a movie waiting to be made.
41 minutes ago • Like
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Ann Bogle Bob Grumman, prosetics at Google still offers prosthetics as an alternative and most of the links are for prosthetics. In WHAT at F'naut I trace the origin of my using the word in 2001 (it was while visiting mIEKAL aND at Dreamtime). I had arrived wearing a winter white wool coat carrying a tawny leather briefcase full of prosetics notes and captured writings, and Zon commented that I seemed like a Hollywood scout or agent, who needed, he said a little later, "to roll in clean dirt." I could not stay out of mIEKAL's lap, and Zon came in the office, where m. and I were collaborating in html prosetics, and saw the way we were sitting, in m.'s lap facing him, and Zon said, "Take it outside! Take it outside!"
35 minutes ago • Like • 1
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Tim VanDyke I just see you and your agenda petulantly and unnecessarily overstaying its welcome, Ann. There are plenty of other places more suited to your needs. I don't think asking a baker not to speak at a fundraiser for the physics department is exactly censorship,
34 minutes ago • Like
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Rich Haber anyone for a game of whack-a-mole?
29 minutes ago • Like
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Ann Bogle Jeffrey Side, I'll ask that you preserve this thread and ask your cohorts who are administrators to preserve it as welll, as the work laid here has value, and if anyone of you knows a way to transfer this thread to a group I start for Prosetics, I will transfer it.Tim VanDyke, fuck you, though you probably haven't killed anyone yet. If you had said "barker" but you said "baker" among physicists. My aunt, Frances Alsmiller, b. 1929 in Wisconsin, was a physicist who worked on the Apollo Project and at Oak Ridge and who was married for almost 50 years to a physicist named Tut Alsmiller who worked by her side. They collected art.
13 minutes ago • Like • 1
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Rich Haber just started reading WπHπAπT - history, eh? don't know how berry fits into this, hope he comes out rosy, cause i like his music.
8 minutes ago • Like
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Ann Bogle Jake Berry is up with p(rose)y and an American. I still hope to review his correspondence with Jeffrey Side, published as Other Voices. Mark Wallace, American candid!
2 minutes ago • Like
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Ann Bogle 89 comments, 3 like this.
about a minute ago • Like • 1

[Thread continues (or not) in two groups, Otherstream and The Argotist Online, at Facebook.  I am just a chick.  How would I know what those men later wrote?]